Strategies for Crossing the Valley of Death with Russ Long

[00:00:00] Russ Long: my beef is that it's not the best company. It's not the best technology. It's not the best people that are winning proposals. It's those that know how to work the bureaucratic system. And it's extremely complicated and extremely frustrating.

And so you basically have to hire insiders. To come in and finagle or ghost ride or influence the RFP and play that game for years. We're finally coming to the understanding that we have to move faster and that the old system isn't working. So the vision I have is that if we could just get everyone's sole source authority or on these different sole source vehicles, then we have an actual opportunity for the best technology to win. 

[00:00:57] Ryan Connell: Hey, this is Ryan Connell with the Chief Digital and Artificial Intelligence Office here today with Russ Long. Russ, welcome.

[00:01:03] Russ Long: Hey, thanks so much for having me.

[00:01:05] Ryan Connell: Yeah, absolutely. looking forward to get into today. I think we're gonna have a great conversation, but first you want to just kind of go through a little bit of your background and what you've been up to.

[00:01:13] Russ Long: Yeah, I'll give you the quick and dirty. So I'm Russ Long, founder and CEO of Long Capture. You know, prior to founding the company, uh, went to the Air Force Academy after I graduated, was active duty contracting officer. So I still joke, Ryan, maybe you'll appreciate this. I'm a recovering contracting officer from that time.

Uh, but yeah, I finished up at Space and Missile Systems Center before I got out and started this. saw that there's a lot of great opportunities, small business set asides, like all kinds of great funding to help small businesses and tech startups knew there was some sort of gap that I wanted to fill.

So started Long Capture and these days we're really focused on helping cool venture capital back tech companies really cross the valley of death, get to the hands of the war fighter.

[00:01:52] Ryan Connell: Awesome. Uh, no, I appreciate that. All right. I gotta ask. how do you define cool?

[00:01:59] Russ Long: Cool, man. It's broad, you know, something that we really care about is impact. You know, there are some really cool ideas, but the impact they're going to have to the warfighter might not be, or to the DOD, maybe there's maybe a good commercial use case. So leading edge, like new stuff, like it's been wild just in the gosh, six to six to seven years that I've been in business.

Like how many new technologies have been. Emerged and now, you know, LLMs and all the changes and crazy, innovations with artificial intelligence and machine learning, and just like how fast we're moving now versus just a couple of years ago. So leading a leading edge, has the potential to scale and have a really big impact or a lot of things that we.

We look at,

[00:02:43] Ryan Connell: Got it. Very cool. I think you and I first connected, back when I was with DC May commercial item group. I just, I got excited about commercial technology. You got excited about commercial technology. and we, we connected to kind of learn about each other. Uh, back then you were doing a lot with the Small Business Innovative Research Program, the SBIR program.

is that something you're still super involved with?

[00:03:03] Russ Long: yeah, we still, we use that. I don't know if you've seen the graphic at all. I'm talking a lot about crossing the Valley of death of my silly train analogy, but silver is still one of the best, kind of starting points. So first, you know, for timeline to revenue, as far as like. You know, if you're coming from scratch, you've never worked with the department of defense again, like getting your foot in the door.

That's still one of the best pathways and timelines to get to revenue. And then the sole source authority that you get through sever, even just winning the, like 75 K phase one, you know, you get this massive tool in your arsenal to use for the next 20 plus years, as you try and work together. And expand with Department of Defense or even other federal customers.

[00:03:40] Ryan Connell: Got it. let's keep, uh, everyone has their own level of expertise. So let's, let's dive into that a little more. So, um,what you're really saying is once you get that, even that phase one, that effectively Buying activities don't need to compete if they want to give you more money for something that's still within that same scope.

Am I saying that correctly?

[00:04:00] Russ Long: Yeah. Yeah. Legal language is extended derived from, but that's pretty broad. So yeah, it's, we can tie it back to the platform or use case or technology that's in the phase one or two, again, just even phase one that opens up a ton of doors to actually then just directly sell to the government and with the customers that you make relationships with.

[00:04:20] Ryan Connell: Got it. Okay. Oh, very cool. So is Sibber a, a tool that helps you with this whole Valley of Death concept? Or is it just creating the part to jump from.

[00:04:29] Russ Long: So I think it's a great on ramp and still one of the best on ramps out there, again, with how much funding that they're putting into it and mostly through the open topics, because you have that flexibility with these tech companies to tell that story of the impact and the use case that you think you're not trying to sift through all the garbage that is the specific topics that are like really, really.

Like nitty gritty, like avionics on the F 35, like who in industry is going to be ready to just like field that. So there's a lot of opportunity there. So with that flexibility, with them bringing in hundreds of tech companies per round, especially through the phase one, that's a really good starting point.

Um, again, gives us that sole source authority that then as we go and have. with different end users who are going to actually use the tech to the customers that like the program offices who are actually going to buy it. It just gives us a lot of that flexibility, to move beyond it. And I will say like, I do really.

Appreciate like the TACFI and STRATFI, which we can break down those acronyms if we need to, but a lot of great matching programs and kind of incentivizing, helping get across that valley of death and provide some additional tools for government to use to help, help pull them in to, to scale it at like the program offices.

So yes, hopefully that answered the

question. 

[00:05:47] Ryan Connell: Yeah, let's unpack those acronyms. I don't even know that I know what they stand for. So over to you.

[00:05:51] Russ Long: So tactical financing and strategic financing. So app works in space works, not an acronym though. They sound like it, you know, just the innovation shops for air force and space force. So they just both dropped a stratify. So strategic financing ground that was a little bit more complicated, but it is up to 15 million in matching from the.

and SBIR program. And so that's the bigger program. We'll see TACFY probably sometime later this year. Spacework dropped, their own separate round beginning of this year. So it'd be interesting to see if they keep doing some separate stuff and not just this one round per year. But again, that tool.

Matching government dollars and private investment just helps to again, pull in some really fast moving leading edge technologies, give some additional funding to these program offices and again, kind of bridge this valley of death to actually get into the programs because, you know, the budgeting and palm cycles and all these things can take three to five years.

So there's some significant money kind of in the middle. TacFi, like you're asking about, tactical financing, just smaller, smaller cousin to it. So between 9 million. So we've seen some people go through both or if they're moving fast enough, they can skip and go straight after StratFi, things like that.

[00:07:08] Ryan Connell: Okay. I'm going to say it my own words and you tell me

if I missed the mark. 

[00:07:12] Russ Long: Okay, let's do it. 

[00:07:13] Ryan Connell: All right. So, I have a dual use product. I apply for a phase one or a phase two sib or I get a little bit of money. Um, I, I prove out some sort of prototype something. I get to a point where now I'm, Shopping for a permanent buyer.

I can't find anyone because no one bombed for this five years ago. Cause no one knew my technology exists five years ago. right. So, so now the enter stratify TACFI where, effectively if I can find some additional funds or how does that work? The, the, the, if there's a VC money coming in, the government will match it.

Just help me understand that.

[00:07:46] Russ Long: Yeah. So let's do TACFY. It's a little simpler, a little cleaner. And so it's a one to one match. So you still need like a kernel or PS 15 or wherever you're calling yourselves these days, like level signature, for TACFY support. and you can either invest from private investing or from government funding.

So follow up money, other research and development money outside of Cibber. Oh, and like all the different colors of money, but you just got to come to the table to apply TACFI. Again, I should have said to start, like you have to have that phase to win. These are like the old enhancement sequential programs have been around for decades, just on steroids.

So for TACFI, you're coming to the table and you've got some of this matching. You can then go and apply to AppWorks or SpaceWorks to add this plus up to your phase two, basically. Stratify again, just a bigger version of it. You actually need like a PEO. Level program, executive office, trying to catch myself on these acronyms,

[00:08:37] Ryan Connell: Yeah, you're good. 

[00:08:38] Russ Long: So like talking maybe a general, SES on the civilian side level signature. And so they're really looking for that support of, is this actually teed up to transition? Are people putting in significant funding from other sources and all those different pieces to put together?

[00:08:56] Ryan Connell: Got it. And in your opinion, like, Is that the bridge or, or is it just kind of getting me farther along, but not all the way there?

[00:09:05] Russ Long: Yeah, I 

think. When Stratify is done well, I think it could be the bridge. you mentioned before I hopped on second wave of innovation. One of those programs I kind of put under that umbrella and I can unpack that later if you want is APTIT. acronym is Accelerate the Procurement of Innovative Technology.

It's something about fielding. So it started a couple of years ago with a hundred million dollar procurement, uh, type funding. The reason we really like that program, I've really focused on it and put out a lot of information on it in the last year or two is that, well, now they're trying to push it up to 400 million.

It's 300 million last year. I'm trying to push to 400 million, but you actually need that support from the program office. You need there to be palming and budgetary conversations so that they get the warm fuzzy that there's actually a sustainment plan here. And it's like really been created to help bridge this gap across the valley of depth.

You've got some R and D, some phase twos, maybe a couple smaller phase threes. Again, that's like any color of money outside of Sibber. So you're starting to get some of these wins. You've got the program office that says, yes, I love it. I love it so much. I palm for you. So let's talk in three years. Is that, this is that gap, 10 to up to 50 million to go in between.

To help you get started, uh, start delivering that solution as the budgetary longer budgetary cycles work. So that's been a really cool program to see, get a lot of traction the last couple of years.

[00:10:32] Ryan Connell: Got it. And maybe I'm out of date here. I remember the first year it coming out and it was like, here's the 10 programs that got funding. It's very, very announced. And it was, I don't know if it was congressionally selected or how that worked, but who makes that decision? Do you know?

[00:10:47] Russ Long: Yeah. So OUSD, um, offers of undersecretary of defense, the RD, T and E folks, uh, uh, Heidi shoe

at the end of the day, it's kind of under their purview.

[00:10:59] Ryan Connell: Interesting. Um, okay. I'm going to pivot a bit. Um, I have a, kind of weird challenge last question for

you. I'll let the person remain nameless, but I often refer to this as their story.

[00:11:13] Russ Long: Okay.

[00:11:13] Ryan Connell: Which is, they had a really cool DOD tech, solution. I think it was AI related human centered type thing.

Um, and effectively market, market, market, try to, you know, pitch your idea, pitch your idea, falling short, get caught up in the Siberaf works process. part of that process required them to be dual use. So now they started, you know, spending their own dollars trying to figure out a, a commercial side of the business, which really was never the model.

but just, just a way to get some money, uh, and it effectively, took them in such a direction that, they ended up closing down shop, but they weren't able to sustain both sides of that model. and the one other bullet point I'll add to that story is, you know, getting some. Pretty heavy interest from Chinese investors.

this person's like, I'm trying to be a Patriot and not sell, to China. but I can't get DOD to buy my solution. And so I think that's probably a common story, but just wanted to put that out there and get what your thoughts are on it.

[00:12:10] Russ Long: so you hit on a major pain point, I think, with this program. So it's answered a lot of gaps or issues that the old SIPR program and the standard topics don't address. And again, they're like really, really specific. They're awarding to maybe two or three companies, but you can go through the data and the vast majority are going to.

10 to 20 companies. I forget the exact number, but it's a very small number of Ciber companies or super mills, potentially that are winning all of the like standard or specific topics. So app works answered that and said, Hey, we want to pull in dual use companies into the ecosystem and provide this on ramp and incentivize those that are getting venture capital investment.

So let me first say like where this works really well is if you're a commercial first I've seen. And honestly kind of prefer to work with companies that like series a or even BCD beyond where they've established the commercial business. They've got the revenue, they're growing that side of it, and they've got time, money, resources, and understand it could be long sales cycles and add the DoD or add the military to it where there is not an answer right now.

Is a defense first company. That's one of the harder challenges and that's what the situation was. And so they felt pressured based on the way app works, grade stuff and what they talk about and like how to get traction with that program. So they probably felt pressured to go and do the commercial thing when they really should have just been defense focused.

So there. Aren't as many like solid on, on ramps, like the open topics for defense first companies, but on the flip side of that, where are we seeing the, the, the biggest impact and the fastest growth is actually a couple of those companies that are defense first, like and roll and Palantir having a billionaire co founder or founder, like certainly helps.

So there's a whole different conversation there, but on the, on the same side, like them being like truly. Really like defense focused first, like has helped them get a lot of traction. So man, if we got a do over, it would be probably trying to move to some of these other funding sources outside of Afworks because there's a bunch of other ones, that they could be pursuing.

Um, again, potentially some longer sales cycles there. So can you still kind of fill up the bucket and, Get that cashflow that you need to help sustain the business while working the longer sales cycles to actually get to the program offices. so I think it can be done and I'm sorry to hear that that's, you know, how it went for this company.

[00:14:44] Ryan Connell: Uh, you mentioned something earlier. You said the term second wave of defense innovation. what is that?

[00:14:51] Russ Long: Yeah. Okay. So let me first jump into what the first wave of innovation was and where I see this being the current. Wave mean this, the second wave of innovation. So many years ago, it was actually a couple of months after I got out, you know, I started being interested in SBIR is because of the sole source authority.

And just like really unique, never saw it as a contracting officer. It blew my mind that no one was talking about it just because of how unique it was. So about six or nine months after I started long capture, uh, F work starts rolling out with the open topic. And it was a wild West and like, things were crazy back in, gosh, I guess summer 2018 through 2020, 2021.

Doing all kinds of stuff at the wall. And so they brought in thousands of non traditional, again, many venture capital backed companies that I can tell you from like when I started and started kind of looking at the super program, like venture capital backed companies didn't want to touch server with a 10 foot pole and rightfully so they were making companies get.

DCAA cost accounting compliance to just to get to a phase two. So like in normal circumstances, you know, tens of millions of dollars in revenue or R and D contracts before you're getting that kind of crazy cost compliance. Like forced upon you, but no, for these small businesses, we're saying, Hey, before we even give you a million dollar phase two, you got to get cost compliance insanity, and that just does not fit with the commercial model, like moving fast, like figuring things out.

So anyways, for a lot of different reasons, the open topic, again, Incentivized and help bring in, create this front door for the non traditional and venture capital backed companies. So over the last, you know, five, six years now, thousands and thousands are, have gotten in the door and they've gotten to phase two, a handful of gotten to like this TACFY, STRATFY, but there's much, much fewer, they're able to get to that program or transition to phase three.

So to answer your question, the second wave of innovation, what we're seeing are programs like AppFit, like Raider, some other. Acronym about rapid development or something like that, but many more funds and a lot more emphasis support from Congress at the Hill, paying attention to like great, like, okay, we've got all these companies here, but if we can't actually transition that many of them, they're going to lose interest, the VCs are going to walk away.

And so I mentioned app fit is one great example going from a hundred million. I think that was three fiscal years ago. To now being at like in the draft language, 400 million, we saw DIU defense innovation unit, getting their, you know, billion dollar hedge portfolio is what they're calling it.

But hundreds of millions of dollars, between all these different innovation efforts as like a whole new fund to really kind of, Support and give actual funding and some power to those that have really been working on this mission and trying to transition new technologies. So the good news, you know, bad news, good news, like some of these older programs.

By the open topic now being a couple of years old, they've kind of crystallized. They've kind of stopped trying to innovate too much. They've got their handful of programs. They've got their budget. They've got it scheduled out, which get me wrong. It's very nice to have a little bit of stability because it was insanity.

but that's nice, but we're not seeing a lot of like pushing the envelope and trying new things anymore. Now we're seeing some of these other funds and much larger pots of money come down to help with this transition across the valley of death. So in summary, it's just like more and more funding, more attention, more support to cross the valley of death.

Once you've got some of that initial traction.

[00:18:26] Ryan Connell: Got it. And, and so I'm curious, uh, I think I know the answer, but you mentioned how, like years ago, SIBR included like for phase two needing like this DCA compliant, uh, cost accounting system, et cetera. Was it like the 2016, 2017 ish NDA that basically said, Hey, non traditional defense contractors are treated as commercial.

Is that what eliminated that? Or is there something different? Yeah.

[00:18:51] Russ Long: You know, I don't know where it actually stemmed from. If there was some NDA, a language that forced it. all I can tell you is that it went from like that kind of being the norm. and I can't remember if the air force was as bad as like Navy and army and some of the others on it.

but I can just tell you like when they started rolling out the open topics, like that went away. It's just firm fixed price. Here's a phase to scope it appropriately. Let's roll.

[00:19:15] Ryan Connell: When you said the year, it really, that's when it clicked with me. I never actually understood the impact, to simmer,until right now. But I think I'm going to guess that's it. Right. Cause we rolled out language that's now in defars that effectively says non traditional defense language, non traditional defense contractors, can be treated as commercial.

And of course, by cast, by, you know, cost certified cost and pricing data. so that actually makes a lot of sense. I just never thought about it until right now. So I

appreciate 

you. a 

[00:19:40] Russ Long: Yeah. No, that's interesting. That's a great 

theory. 

[00:19:42] Ryan Connell: little bit of inspiration. Yeah, we'll go with a theory. Yeah, exactly. hey, uh, I know you've hit it a couple times.

You've talked about the, one of the main benefits of SIVIR for your perspective is, this like sole source authority. you want to dive into that a little bit? You know, just any other unique authorities, what you like about that, etc. Yeah.

[00:20:02] Russ Long: Yeah. And I'll say, you know, my bone to pick with the way that the department of defense does business. I mean, it's the cold war era thinking move slow, be bureaucratic, all that crap. And so like I worked source selections when I was active duty and, some of the worst months of my life, you know, being locked in a windowless room.

I had so many. Stupid stories to share there. Maybe another time, but my beef is that it's not the best company. It's not the best technology. It's not the best people that are winning proposals. It's those that know how to work the bureaucratic system. And it's extremely complicated and extremely frustrating.

And so you basically have to hire insiders. To come in and finagle or ghost ride or influence the RFP and play that game for years. So there's a lot of those shenanigans going on. And so the way I want the Department of Defense to buy in the future, and there's been a lot of pressure because of Russia, China, and all these other.

International issues and conflicts where we're finally coming to the understanding that we have to move faster and that the old system isn't working. So the vision I have is that if we could just get everyone's sole source authority or on these different sole source vehicles, then we have an actual opportunity for the best technology to win.

Because again, through the old bureaucratic process, I know you've seen it and dealt with it, but. You have someone that's unqualified trying to write the requirement document and get everything right on a multi, you know, a hundred million dollar contract. And they just can't think of anything or they don't have the expertise to write it.

So you get a very poorly written requirement. And what you get then is someone who knows how to play the game and bid the very poorly written requirement and then mod the crap out of it after the contract's awarded to actually make. You know, make good and make some money on the contract or the whole model that the primes do with the cost reimbursable and just go for years.

Everything's covered, no risk to them. So anyways, if we can just get everyone, all these different tech companies, non traditionals on like essentially an even playing field, then it's an opportunity to like, you know, Build these relationships. It gives the government the flexibility to, I don't run a couple of pilots, run a couple of demos, like have a bake off basically, and see like what best fits their need and then throw money into that at scale to then, you know, scale it up from there.

So ultimately like that's what I'm trying to drive towards with long capture and where we're going. And over the years I've seen other transactions start to get better guidance and training on it because everyone. I mean, I love what Bonnie and some of the other folks, you know, don't far on my OTA or OT.

everyone's just like making it a far contract when that was exactly the opposite point, whole freaking thing. So a lot more people getting familiar with it. more contracting and agreements, officers getting comfortable and training on like what you can do with those tools, things like trade wins, popping up is huge.

Love that model. I have no idea how y'all got away with it. I think it's fantastic. but just if we can have all these different pathways that actually increase dialogue and communication and understanding between industry's capabilities and what the government mission set is and what their needs are, and then have fast pathways to just work with the people who can actually deliver, like that's the dream.

That's where we want to go.

[00:23:18] Ryan Connell: Got it. That's super interesting. Spicy takes there, for sure. Uh, and I love it. So, yeah, I mean, the Tradewinds model is, is really nothing more than what you've already said that you liked with Sibber. it's, Post competition, just putting awareness in a big, group hug around everyone who's in that post competitive environment.

Um, so I'd almost argue that we're not advertising it as a sole source. it's like You've 

competitively earned it. 

[00:23:41] Russ Long: Yeah, there's a process of things you have to get through to get to that point. So there's some vetting. Yeah, maybe a little similar to like a phase one on the super side. You know, they're not just anyone can come in and get on there. so there's a process there, but like once you've done a couple of these things, then the doors open.

[00:23:57] Ryan Connell: So something you kind of kicked off with in that, in that spicy take, which was,you talked about. Getting rid of basically giving sole source authority to everyone. I'm curious in your, and then you talked about like the demos and stuff like that, right? So those are all types of things we have the authority to do today, right?

we see those pilot IRS, like there's some cool written down examples of how to actually go through tech demo. so is your problem really, or, your. Solution, I guess I'll call it really to cut SICA or just to teach people how to do source selection better.

[00:24:29] Russ Long: Ooh, that's a great question. 

you know, my biggest challenge as a contracting officer, honestly, it wasn't the far. Um, it wasn't the federal acquisition regulations. My challenge was getting my leadership to try anything different and new. So on the flip side, it's like getting more training, education, I've got.

strong dislike for how defense acquisition university trains the contracting workforce. Um, very, very risk averse, does not empower them to make sound business decisions, which was the whole premise. You know, initially it's like, Oh, you can be a contracting officer. You're gonna make business decisions.

And then they scare you to death telling you you're going to go to jail. So I think that even within current perimeters, even with, within SICA, more training and helping. Contracting officers and all the technical points of contact, program managers, engineers, like just have conversations with industry to better understand capabilities and use cases and really just even better understand their own problems sometimes.

So I think that piece. So I guess to try and answer your question, I think a lot can be addressed through existing channels. It's just changing a lot of the cultural and training pieces that come along with those that are making the buying decisions.

[00:25:51] Ryan Connell: Yeah. Love that. And, you know, you, you got me to write down, which always means that we're having a good conversation, but I wrote down, my biggest challenge wasn't with the FAR. It was with, convincing leadership to do

something different. 

[00:26:02] Russ Long: Every time, My GS 15 commander equivalent was always like, ah, you know, no.

You might sugarcoat it a little bit more, but the answer was no.

[00:26:13] Ryan Connell: Sure, sure. Got it. Very cool. I'm gonna pivot a little bit and talk about, you know, we started off this call talking about I asked you what cool technology was. and then, um, you mentioned something about. Really liking commercial first as far as like technology being developed as opposed to defense first, just like what else?

What else is it that you look for specifically when deciding to, also take on a client or a customer kind of engaged? Is there other things besides those two? Or is there or is that it?

[00:26:43] Russ Long: those are some really big pieces. I love taking a look at the founders and seeing what they've done before. you know, if they come out of places that are really innovative and move fast, or they coming out of a Boeing after 30 years, you know, like you, you've got to learn some very different skill sets and startup world to be successful there.

You've seen what. You know, the large corporation can look like. So anyways, there's some thoughts there. obviously having some solid, you know, VC backing that shows that, those folks do a lot of due diligence, as well. So that helps kind of check the box as far as, okay, they've gone through other people's vetting process and due diligence process.

So there's probably Other aspects. Again, we talked a little bit about scalability. Uh, well, I'll say, okay, something that I've seen over the years is focus. and this is part of, I see it more often at the seed or pre seed round. You know, you haven't just maybe started raising a little bit of funding.

You're still trying to figure out, go to market on the commercial side. And it's like, Oh, what are your capabilities? Like, Oh, we can do anything with data. It's like, I don't, no one that you talk to is going to know what to do with that. So like, knowing your specific problem and pain point, being able to communicate that is really important.

At least knowing it on the commercial side, we can work with that to figure out what it is and how to communicate it on the defense side. So I think those are some really important factors that I look at.

[00:28:05] Ryan Connell: Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to jump on the last one. Last thing that 

you said. I hear vendor pitches all the time. Right. and I do hear the ones of like, I have a large language model. I'll make it do whatever you want.and I wish so, so you and I have opposite wishes, I think.

Right. So like, I wish that you would come to me with some solutions to my problem. And I think you wish that I would tell you what my problems are.

[00:28:30] Russ Long: we do both. So we're, we're constantly out there talking to government to figure out what their capability gaps are. And so when we have the company that knows what they're doing and it's like, Hey, I can do X, Y, Z capability. but again, Like not LLM, but like with LLM, there's this specific problem. We can provide this specific capability, then we can match it to the government folks that we've been talking to and know.

so, you know, to me in your position, it's a red flag. If they're coming to you and be like, Oh, we can solve whatever problems you have. That's to me, not a good sign. What we work with our clients to do and what we, encourage people to do is like, do your research. Like there's public affairs articles everywhere, every base.

Like everyone's got news coming out about what the priorities are, what their capability gaps are, what types of technologies and innovation they're trying to invest in. So like do your research, ask questions, figure that piece out. So that by the time they're doing a demo or pitching, they can guess, Fairly well at what your capability gap is.

And then when you're in that situation, worst case scenario, it's like not quite a fit. It's like, well, it's not this, but it's this. And so it's either, yes, we can actually address that. And thanks for like redirecting the conversation the right way. Or, Hey, let me connect to this other organization that does have that problem that we just talked about.

So you can do a lot more with the conversation, but Hey, I can fix all your problems. It's like, I don't even know. I don't know where to start with that. What do I do with you, you know?

[00:29:57] Ryan Connell: Yeah, exactly. Awesome. Hey, I appreciate it. I just want to give you an opportunity. I don't know if you have anything else, big picture, small picture stuff that you want to share with the, uh, with the audience, but, any kind of closing remarks before we wrap up and I'll let you to you.

[00:30:12] Russ Long: all I'll say is, like, I'd encourage you all to reach out. you can submit a form through our website to get on our email list, or, connect with me, Russell Long, on LinkedIn. We're constantly putting out videos about Crossing the Valley of Death, talking about AppFit and all these different programs.

So, like, we're trying to really do as much as we can to bring down barriers, because there are, you know, So, yeah, if you found any of this informative or want to learn more, you'll start seeing a lot of free content through those different channels. That's all I got, right?

[00:30:42] Ryan Connell: Awesome. Hey, appreciate the conversation today. thanks for being here.

[00:30:45] Russ Long: Yeah, thanks so much.