Mastering the DoD Procurement Maze with Cody James

Cody James [00:00:00]:
If you are creating something that is of enough value, you can get enough, like, kind of grassroots support. And then if you can get enough high level support, and people care very deeply about what it is, they're not going to let it die. They're going to find ways to push it forward and get it baked into the system and make that change. Despite really all the cards being stacked against you, we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Through our blood and your bonds, we crushed the Germans before he got here. You and I have a rendezvous with Destiny.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:00:37]:
This is Bonnie Evangelista with the chief Digital and Artificial Intelligence Office, joined by Cody James. Can you give us a quick rundown of who you are, who you work for, what you do?

Cody James [00:00:48]:
Yeah. My name is Cody James. I'm the founder of OpenX, and we do is digital training for hard industrial skills like robotics or maybe machining, composites. A lot of the things that make up the great, like aerospace and defense industries across the United States and globally.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:01:02]:
And how long have you been doing that?

Cody James [00:01:03]:
Started OpenX. The original idea was about six years ago, and I went full time three months before COVID which was quite fun.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:01:09]:
Oh, yeah.

Cody James [00:01:09]:
And yeah, I've been a robotics programmer previously in the industry for the last about ten years.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:01:13]:
Yeah. And where are you calling from? Any place fun today?

Cody James [00:01:16]:
I'm calling from Salt Lake City. We have an office here and then one in Southern California in Irvine. Spend my time split between the two.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:01:22]:
Oh, yeah. And where do you live, though? Are you local to Salt Lake City?

Cody James [00:01:25]:
Kind of both. It's startup, but, yeah, we're next to Hillary Air Force Base here, so right up in.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:01:32]:
See, I see. All right. How did you come to be? You called yourself a robotics engineer, right?

Cody James [00:01:37]:
Yeah, I was a robotics programmer before working in aerospace, so I was like, at Boeing, I worked on the seven eight seven Dreamliner FQ automation programs on that, and then on the Delta Four NASA collAboration. So how I got into that originally was the inkling into creating OpenX. I found that university programs and community colleges were outdate by, like, four to five years. And to go get a third party certification, it was like this exhaustive five day workshop where you're just like, pedaling through these old notebooks and manuals. So I ended up learning off of just YouTube and Reddit to get into robotics programming originally. And later on, I decided to create a company that makes the process of learning the skills way easier so we could help America scale up further and revive the manufacturing prowess of our country.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:02:20]:
Is that how you got into sibers? Because I hear you have quite the extensive experience with so.

Cody James [00:02:28]:
Well, we're not a siber mill, that's for sure. We've only pursued one of the SBI grant programs. We did that under guidance of a mentor of mine who's a retired two Star Air Force general. And he brought this idea of, like, hey, if you want to revive the manufacturing powers of America, and if you want to empower Americans to build again, what better thing than to partner with the Air Force? Really? Like, you're looking at Boeing and Lockheed and Northrop. Makes sense. That's their customer, and it's the full ecosystem. We applied for one SBIr right around COVID when it began and brought that within two months to a phase two. Within twelve months, we got to our first phase three, and we've grown quite a bit from there.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:03:04]:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. Within twelve months you were in your phase three? Can we unpack that a little bit? Because that's not common.

Cody James [00:03:14]:
Very hard.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:03:16]:
What's the story there?

Cody James [00:03:17]:
Yeah, so what we brought forward, the key technology, is that we wanted to be able to take any technical topic, so say, like machining, which would be used on all the metal tech shops across the Air Force, or maybe understanding, like, composites that are used on the B Two, or many other modern aircraft like the F 35. We wanted to create a system. We could take these technologies and then rapidly create, like, a full training program that gives you a 3D model and allows airmen to maneuver them and work through them. If you're familiar, CBTs have a terrible rap in the DoD, rightfully so. They're like, for all the Air Force listeners, Jeff and Tina, it's like 2001 graphics and moving around. So what we were pitching in our SBR was like, what if we could create a really beautiful, modern skill training platform that helps empower airmen, service members, adopt these new technologies and understand them, also maybe be able to use them when they transition as well. So we pitch that we get adopted from O'Connell Air Force Base 22 ARW under Air Mobility Command, and we deployed in their innovation lab or their spark cell. The idea was, let's get airmen the ability to, within weeks, instead of, like six or nine months, train up on all the different tools and technologies they're using in their spark cell.

Cody James [00:04:25]:
That caught the attention of then Secretary of the Air Force, the Honorable Miss Barbara Barrett. And she had us out to hear about what we were doing. She aptly called it Netflix for industrial skill Training. And then we were able to meet with General Van Ovost, who was at the time commander of Air Mobility Command, and she was asking a few important questions to the sparks, questions around transitioning service members and how they come in, how quickly we can get them to pick up the right skills, and then when they transition or they tDY or know, just move in the natural flow of things. I was able to listen in on that conversation and threw out a few different ideas, and we had a really good conversation around how we can support the global network of different spark cells. Soon after that, Air Mobility Command would bring us to our first phase three, where we were able to deploy our training platform across all of the different spark cells globally that were within their reach. And, yeah, we were able to help a lot of airmen get powered up faster and go solve problems. That was our first phase three.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:05:22]:
Did you just have the. I don't know, what was it? I guess, right place, right time? I'm like, what was going on? Because you got the attention of the right people and the right end users to make all the stars align to get to that phase three in a relatively short amount of time, in my opinion.

Cody James [00:05:42]:
Yeah.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:05:43]:
What's your take on that?

Cody James [00:05:44]:
Yeah, I mean, it would be very difficult, I guess, to recreate it. It was very fortunate, but they say luck is this crossroads between hard work and opportunity, and still are not really sleeping much. Very small, lean team. But we're just having as many conversations as possible, sharing with what we're doing with as many people. And we have a huge thing here where we really believe in just developing relationships rather than trying to push or pedal sales or anything like that. So by building these authentic relationships with a lot of airmen and agnostic of rank, we don't care. We got a call one day from a tech sergeant who's just exceptional at what he does. He's an incredible coach, and he said, hey, I have this opportunity.

Cody James [00:06:23]:
I really love what you guys are doing. I'd love for you to come by and meet Sec AF or I'd love for you to meet General Van Ovost. And we find that the more we put ourselves out there and the more we're building these authentic relationships where we're genuinely trying to provide something of value and solve a problem, the more these opportunities seem to pop up.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:06:39]:
Have you had more than one phase three since then?

Cody James [00:06:42]:
Yeah. Today we were just awarded our 27th phase three from that one Sbir. We're not a program of record yet, but we have support for it to apply and we're in that PPBE lifecycle and we're going to aim for the deadline next year with our partners.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:06:56]:
Sorry, I'm still processing that you've had 27 phase threes because that too is quite uncommon to have that many. But was it the phase threes with the same customer or end user, or was it different end users?

Cody James [00:07:11]:
Different end users for the most part, a little bit of like our overarching strategy. So we're trying to think of how do we get a new piece of technology adopted at scale and we're looking at all these things like, okay, this is a super complex process and why is it that so many startups can't really transition or make it through these hurdles? We know where we want to be, which is to be this long lifecycle, sustained technology that is able to bring value to the people who need it and that helps us stay alive in the environment. After we got to our phase two, we started having very deep thoughts about what does our transition pathway look like. So we decided that with this first opportunity for us to bring our platform across all the different spark cells, what we're going to do instead of just going for and right or wrong, like we don't know. We are a group of people trying to figure it out. Like most, what we intended to do was let's try to find a way where we can build past performance and build credibility by offering smaller, easier to engage phase threes, like larger than a GPC limit or maybe like around that range, but not something that is like this in itself. Large, massive program that's going to be sustained forever. Let's try to find these opportunities and then let's engage them across all the different key.

Cody James [00:08:20]:
You know, we were able to engage with AMC to start. We use that to build a relationship with Air Force Global Strike Command, with ACC, then with AETC. We actually, it's an interesting note for us being a training company. We went ATC afterwards because we wanted to focus on being very fielded and being driven by the service members on the field who actually need something. That's not to say ATC doesn't do that, but in the context of what we wanted to drive, wanted to make sure it was in the hands of the driver. So, yeah, that's why it's such a large number in terms of phase three, is we've just really focused on trying to build this past performance from our experience in the industry. We're thinking like, well, someone's reviewing this. We can't just ask, will you take us to program of record.

Cody James [00:08:58]:
We want to have that kind of context first.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:09:00]:
Is it fair to say you did a number of. Sorry, I had to pause for a second because my daughter's in the background. I think it got a little too loud. Is it fair to say your strategy was more, I'll use my terms. Implementing or executing a number of small pilots, like you said, at that really low dollar range level, which is where the cost risk is low, so that you could have at least the opportunity, the chance to build the longer term relationship that might lead to. And here's where you can check me, and I may be putting words in your mouth, but because I think I know you're doing, because we use the same strategy kind of on the trade winds team, where we're not necessarily guaranteeing anything when we're starting these pilots, but the act of learning is more important to us than trying to boil the ocean. So to say, yeah, okay.

Cody James [00:09:49]:
Yeah, that's equivalent. Yeah.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:09:51]:
I heard you say earlier this was kind of during COVID period. So between then and now, you've received these 27. Phase three, correct?

Cody James [00:10:00]:
Yeah.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:10:01]:
Okay. So what are some, I would say, big learning moments for you? So you're kind of doing the same thing we are. What have you learned through this process in terms of built? I'm sure not all 27 are going maybe at a longer term relationship with you, contractually. So what's going on there?

Cody James [00:10:17]:
Yeah, well, there's a lot of lessons, even from just a traditional startup standpoint. We're a startup. We're trying to figure out things and grow a company that can scale to solve the problem we want to. So, in traditional kind of startup motion, you would develop a product market fit, and you'd have, like, ICPs or ideal customer profiles that you can repeat. We found that in the context of DOD, a lot of that gets kind of thrown out the window. You have this ultra complex chain of approval that is very difficult. And we've been constantly evolving this and trying to think through it. One of the largest ones, naturally, and you'll find a million people talking about it, is the procurement process and just how difficult that is.

Cody James [00:10:51]:
And I can tell you that we didn't figure out how to scale these smaller engagements, these proof of concepts, pilots, past performances before we solved the contracting side. So we were lucky enough to be selected by 82nd cons out of AETC to pilot one of their new things called Innovation Sherpas. And what this was is a five year blanket purchase agreement that gave us the ability to procure off of, like, a standardized kind of call sign or call sheet. That was extremely helpful for us. And I know that's not much of a learning, but I'm just putting some context behind kind of our experience and getting to know this environment and navigating it. So, yeah, that was extremely important. Now, from the learning standpoint, there's a million small things, like, often when we see a request for proposal or something online, by the moment it's hit online, it's most likely that they've already figured out kind of how they want to go about this. This team has, or it's already been structured that way.

Cody James [00:11:40]:
We found the importance of being a part of the conversations early and ensuring that we're aligned with what the goals of the end user group is. Just the natural stuff. Yeah. And trying to bring the right amount of progress from a technology standpoint to the right people at the right time. I'm sure that you guys have dealt quite a bit with this concept of frozen middle. I think people are like, we don't need change. Let's just keep it as it is, or there's no incentive profile for introducing a new risk. It's been a pretty interesting journey.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:12:09]:
Yeah. Can we go back to the innovation Sherpas thing? Can you tell me more about that? What is that again? And how did you play a role in it?

Cody James [00:12:16]:
Yeah, so essentially, it's a simplified acquisition pathway where they brought in a few different companies and issued blanket purchase agreements where you're able to place a catalog of your product service, and then you enable different contracting or end user groups to procure quicker off of it. So we're able to go, for example, we just brought licenses of our training platform all across the Japan air bases like Yakota and Kadina. We were able to come into the groups there and we were able to get them onto, for example, get them onto our blanket purchase agreement, onto our call log, and then they could just make a call to these standardized things, and we already have the contract built out for them. We were one of the early selected companies to be able to pilot and build that out with the 82nd Cons team.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:13:02]:
The BPAs were decentralized so that other contracting units or support elements could leverage. Okay, so it wasn't 82nd cons performing the calls or executing the calls, right?

Cody James [00:13:18]:
Yeah.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:13:18]:
Okay. Yeah, that's a big deal.

Cody James [00:13:19]:
Yeah, it was very helpful. Yeah, we were exploring. Like, we talked to GSA, and they're a fantastic team. Like, Rodney quick out there is doing outstanding work under a five, but we were just trying to figure out what was the right route that would work the best for the customers and the groups, and that would allow us to get the scale that we needed to be able to go support getting to program of record.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:13:39]:
Well, just in the ten minutes or so we've been talking, it sounds like you've successfully, to some degree, I would call it a success. Whether you're humble enough or not, navigated this labyrinth of our DOD construct. I guess I'm landing in a place of. I think part of the reason why we're talking today is because there's recognition that it shouldn't be so hard to do what you did. What is from your perspective, maybe the reality that small businesses or startups like yours are facing, and they may not have had maybe the moments that you had where I called it right place, right time. I'm not trying to dismiss the hard work that you all put in, but there is an element of knowing the right people and being in the right maybe space that some people just don't have the luxury of having. So I'll stop pontificating and I'm really interested. From your perspective, how would I say this, true or real? Is that for a startup or a small like.

Cody James [00:14:42]:
I think a lot of our progress came from us not knowing that certain things were very difficult. We didn't know that there was a low percentage of companies that transitioned to phase three. And we have no experience, particularly working in the Department of Defense like atmosphere, certainly on the manufacturing and engineering sides, but not building a team that goes in services or sells to. So when it comes to new startups, as of recently, I've been a lot more hesitant when giving inputs or advice to fellow startups that are joining. For example, there's one that I love, the product of what they're building. They're called Roll up AI, and I want to give away too much, but essentially it's a better system for engineering new products. And a founder and I were talking and he's like, I'd really like to see if this would be of value to the Air Force. And I gave a lot of kind of just hesitancies.

Cody James [00:15:31]:
Well, you know, there's a lot of challenges in terms, know, you could have like a four star, be excited about what you're doing, and it actually doesn't matter much in terms of getting it over the line and getting it fully know. It might be exciting getting a phase one, but then it's very difficult to get the level of support or get the level of clarity that you need to get towards phase two. And while you're trying to gain this level of clarity, you're going to be bogged down by everything from the WAF pie system, which is exhausting for a new company to figure out. It's like so painful to trying to figure out where is the signal in the noise. And be honest, we're still trying to figure out where exactly is that signal in the noise. For new startups and companies entering the space, I would just heed the warning of there's going to be so many things that are apparent signals that you would want to draw your attention towards. But if you can somehow find to a degree of certainty, like the real signals that have potential of bringing you forward, and I think that comes partly from just talking to people who've been through the process, I'm very thankful for the type of people that I've had the chance to either listen to online or just talk to in person. There's some really great minds in the space.

Cody James [00:16:42]:
One I can't cite enough is like Trey Stevens over at Founders Fund. He's also the chairman of, you know, if you listen to any of his podcasts, know him talking about his experience back at Palantir, everything he says is like dead know. You can just tell that he's lived and breathed this for quite some time. So, yeah, I would just heed the warning that there's a lot of false positives and that it's really hard to lock onto the good signal.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:17:08]:
And any other resources or industry resources that you tend to gravitate towards as you're doing what you're talking about navigating.

Cody James [00:17:19]:
They change so often. It's like when we started, Union VC was super popular for everyone talking, and it doesn't seem like that's as popular these days. But yeah, I find getting to know and befriending a couple of the wise groups of really good operators in the space, either on the service side or on the public or private side, find that to be helpful. Just having people that you can talk to and meet them at either these trade shows or you just spot them, like operating anywhere, really. But yeah, just building that little community, I find that that's one of the most valuable things, but I can't say that there's like one really solid, perfect resource. It's really hard to find.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:17:57]:
Sure. Okay, how about in your journey, what was some of that advice or insight that you gleaned from wherever operator side mentors, people, like you said, who have lived this path, or you could tell that they lived this path. I would call that the equivalent. I like to say when I'm looking for people on the government side, I'm looking for people with deep Pentagon scars. Right. That people, they know. So what were some of the things in your journey that really, I don't know, just helped you either be resilient or understand when to pivot or to do the false positives.

Cody James [00:18:33]:
Identify the. Yeah, so I think the most important thing is that there's a certain understanding that's talked about every once in a while. I think Elon talked about it at AFA a few years ago. But it's the incentive structure and how no matter really how good what you're building is, there's very thin or low incentives to bring that forward because it's going to introduce new risk and there's a lot of complexities. And what do I get as service member? If I bring forward this new technology and it helps us buy a process by Ten X or 100 X, I might get a pat on the back or something, but if it goes wrong, I'll get punished. And there's a terrible overall incentive structure. So I find that there's like a small group of people that are within the Department of Defense, that are within the US government that care so passionately about solving a problem that they're the ones who are willing to carry the torch forward and introduce a solution to actually fix a major problem, despite this overarching, maligned kind of like incentive structure. So find one of the most important lessons is making sure that you're spending time with those groups that have this strong conviction about solving the problem that you're trying to solve as well.

Cody James [00:19:47]:
And then other than that, super important. But just building something that people fall in love with. If you are creating something that is of enough value, you can get enough kind of grassroots support. And then if you can get enough high level support, and people care very deeply about what it is, they're not going to let it die. They're going to find ways to push it forward and get it baked into the system and make that change despite really all the cards being stacked against you.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:20:12]:
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You're really emphasizing a few truths, I found from talking to all sorts of different people. I mean, you started by talking about engaging with operators so that you understand where the problems are. And once you provide a product or a service that fills that gap, if you have absolute clarity on how you're adding value to improve a practitioner like me or an operator's life that tends to be thing number one for how you do.

Cody James [00:20:45]:
Well, it's a classic startup, like actually solve a problem.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:20:50]:
Yes.

Cody James [00:20:52]:
So overlooked, but yeah, very building block.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:20:56]:
Yeah. And then the idea of where my mind went when you were talking about find this niche group of people who are finding ways to get things done in an environment that is not incentivizing them to do any of that, there's something to learn there. I can totally appreciate and relate to that as well. So I don't know, what can we learn from this as well in terms of can we get to a place we, the department, where we can spur the growth of new ideas and new companies and startups to execute on those ideas? Essentially, do you believe we can get to that place without the institutional inertia.

Cody James [00:21:32]:
Fighting back, spark ideas internally or externally or just agnostically across the board?

Bonnie Evangelista [00:21:38]:
Yeah, but I mean, recognizing industry is the one providing the department with goods and services.

Cody James [00:21:46]:
Yeah. I would say generally the incentive is think, you know, if had the chance, most startups wouldn't shy away from having the US government as a customer. It's just that the process has become so cumbersome and you're trying to, like you said, navigate this labyrinth within this Leviathan, like this monster. I find certain efforts, they're not really highly scaled, but certain efforts, like Heidi Shu from OST has put out in terms of scaling up, getting more vehicles and bridging up more companies to have more sustainable contract vehicles, those are really great. But at the end of the day, the majority of SBIR companies that go through, whether for the better or for the worse, they're going to die if they just rely within the US government, unfortunately. So they're going to spend an exhaustive amount of time, like we all do, trying to figure out the right paths forward and trying to figure out whether there's some intricacy within the phase two process and they're trying to figure out what level of security grade software do I need to build or what kind of considerations do I need in ITar if I'm building hardware that's going to go on a certain system, whether they'll exhaust themselves on that process or exhaust themselves on the almost infinite number of other processes that they could, most are going to make that transition. And I know it's been aptly called value of death and stuff, but what I'm getting to overall is that this environment has become so complex to navigate when maybe it doesn't necessarily have to be. If we were able to build a system where, I know it sounds horrible and super high level.

Cody James [00:23:20]:
But if we were able to summarize it into, like, here are the exact ten steps that you need to get through. Okay, so if you're going through the SBI process, you need to understand these 15 things in terms of how to communicate with an end user. What are the differences in the end users? How do you bill an invoice? And if we can get that level of understanding across these young companies of where they actually need to go, because most communications and Afworks is doing a phenomenal job with what they have and the constraints of a constantly rotating leadership. But if we can communicate a bit more beyond just like, get to phase three, what does that mean? And why are we excited about that? Does that imply exactly that they've made it to a sustained contract, that they're now something that is going to be around for five to ten years? Or like anything else, if we could simplify the process of new companies entering, and then focus very much so on making sure that as many of the good ideas, like, we don't need to fight against the natural flow of capitalism and, like, companies dying or not, but if we could make sure that the good ideas have a chance to make it through and begin to solve one by one, these processes that are broken, of acquisition, of clarity, of the contracting process, and more prevent companies from having to go the natural route, that makes the most sense, which is pouring tons of money into trade shows to try to get in front of as many people that are potentially the right decision makers. You'll see like, micro cases that are being created and pushed right now, like half a force pushing the gain system, which in vision, I mean, that's a good chance to bring more visibility to the process from one angle, but, yeah, it's almost. Yeah. The Leviathan of the US government has this idea that we want to bring in new technologies, and a lot of that could exist, but we just don't have the breadth of ability to make it, like a simple transition. Yeah, I guess the question and the answer depend very much by what angle or what size side you're on for sure.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:25:08]:
How about what understanding? Kind of like we were just talking about earlier, we can't boil the ocean overnight. What do you think is a logical, practical next step, though, for the department, like, to move toward what you're talking about, to maybe breaking down the Leviathan or the labyrinth into a place where we have less turns or something. Right. What does that look like to you in terms of what a great next step? I'm very practitioner oriented. Right. So this is for the practitioners. What could we be doing now versus waiting for someone to fix all the things? What is that to you?

Cody James [00:25:49]:
Yeah, I would say something that would be really helpful from an acquisition standpoint is to not only understand the background of the new technology or the company that you're working with, if it's an SBI company, understanding like, okay, I am safe to talk to this company, but understanding the constraints around their build, like their configuration of a company. So things like, it's very important that we get to contract quickly. We can't spend four months after we've heard something positive, and then just like, we'll get to this later when we can kind of thing a faster, simplified, easy acquisition process where the key users that are supporting the company also understand the company. So if we had that, I think that that would be a massive gain. Super helpful, but also, by any means, just helping the new ideas, the new technologies understand the rest of the process. If we did this poll across all of the different phase two companies in the last cycle, how many of them understand the difference between getting to phase three and getting to a sustained contract within a certain peo or a certain key arena? I think that that's a huge difference. And there is a resource out there, I'm sure of it, but there's no resource that's massively spread across and given to every single new company that's coming in. And I am talking just from the siber niche, but no resource that explains what the acronym PPBE stands for or anything else, I think that would be super helpful from the practitioner standpoint to not only understand the config of these companies, not be scared of them, but guide them through and give them better clarity on where they should be putting their focus.

Cody James [00:27:24]:
I know it's a lot to ask, but if a group is really serious about wanting to find the best technologies that are coming in, and I know it's like a limited array, those are some of the things that I think would really be helpful for building that relationship with a new company.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:27:38]:
Right. All right, so we're starting to ask our guests, what does a defense maverick mean to you? And I know you're on the industry side, so I think you'll have an interesting spin or take on what you believe it means to be a defense maverick.

Cody James [00:27:56]:
I guess people from unconventional backgrounds bringing different ideas forward. Yeah, I would say that that mostly is it people from unconventional backgrounds that are trying to bring change and positive progress forward that even don't have any experience in these environments. They're just like, hey, this needs to be solved. Let's go figure it that whether that's the people I mentioned before, like a Trey Stevens. I'd consider that to be a great defense maverick. Know a Palmer lucky he's done phenomenal work in the defense atmosphere. And I think he just coined a phraSe. I love this.

Cody James [00:28:29]:
He's like taking the Silicon Valley, like, move fast and break things, but in defense context, it's like, move fast and fix things. And, yeah, I think these types of personalities are like true, genuine representations of a defense maverick, but someone who's not worried about the size of the Leviathan. They're just like, okay, well, this is our system, and we're going to make it the best it can be, no matter what, irrespective of the challenge.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:28:53]:
I dig it. And final piece of advice, either to anyone. Not restrictive, anything we haven't covered that you just want to say to close the loop on our fun conversation.

Cody James [00:29:06]:
Yeah, probably the best piece of advice is just because you can rationalize something doesn't mean it's true. All of us are constantly trying to figure this out, myself included. And I would love to learn from anyone who's listened to this and has additional information that would help us figure this out and other groups that are constantly trying to navigate and fight through this maze. And, yeah, main advice is just stick with the people who are also trying to figure it out. That tends to be a pretty good bet.

Bonnie Evangelista [00:29:33]:
Awesome. You've been such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

Cody James [00:29:39]:
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.